Recent Public Posts - [guest]
Re: 2025 - Service update and amendment log, Swindon <-> Westbury In "TransWilts line" [363049/29726/18] Posted by matth1j at 06:47, 10th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
This morning's Gloucester-Southampton (Melksham 6:32) service was cancelled after reaching Swindon due to a fault on the train. Hopefully delay/repay will cover the cost of the 271 bus I'm currently waiting for...
Re: 2025 - Service update and amendment log, Swindon <-> Westbury In "TransWilts line" [363048/29726/18] Posted by TaplowGreen at 06:44, 10th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
05:11 Gloucester to Southampton Central due 08:09
05:11 Gloucester to Southampton Central due 08:09 was terminated at Swindon.
It will no longer call at Chippenham, Melksham, Trowbridge, Westbury, Dilton Marsh, Warminster, Salisbury, Romsey and Southampton Central.
This is due to a fault on this train.
Re: Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion In "Campaigns for new and improved services" [363047/231/28] Posted by chuffed at 02:40, 10th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
News,Just In.....The present Metro mayor is Helen Godwin elected 2 months ago replacing Dan Norris who is dealing with rather more than a little local difficulty.
Re: 9.08 Bristol to Weymouth 29/06 Fresh Air Express In "Heart of Wessex" [363046/30417/19] Posted by Timmer at 22:42, 9th July 2025 Already liked by broadgage | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The service was pretty reliable when the service was operated by 37s and Mk2 coaching stock in the days of Regional Railways and later by Wales and West who ended the loco hauled era trumpeting that more modern DMU rolling stock would improve the service.
I was at Bath Spa on the first summer Saturday of the new timetable when the replacement for the morning Weymouth loco hauled service, a 2 car 158 with a 153 attached rocked up almost full from Bristol.
It left absolutely wedged with passengers down the line standing no chance of boarding. This was at the time when Wales and West had reduced the Summer Saturday morning Bristol to Weymouth trains to just one train leaving Bristol around 9am. Next train not until around 12pm.
This was fine when you had a full rake of loco hauled Mk2s operating the solo morning service but not a when it was a 2 car 158 with a dog box attached! Some improvement not!
Many fond memories of day trips to Weymouth from Bath when it was loco hauled. Comfortable Mk2s with plenty of seats for everyone. Sadly the appeal of going to Weymouth on a 165/166 just doesn’t do it for me.
Re: Air India flight to London Gatwick crashed in Ahmedabad - 12 June 2025 In "The Wider Picture Overseas" [363045/30350/52] Posted by JayMac at 22:36, 9th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
A Mayday was issued by the pilots. The above doesn’t really gel with that?
Depends on the timing of that mayday transmission. Aviate, navigate, communicate. It may have been the last action they took knowing they couldn't recover from their predicament.
Re: 9.08 Bristol to Weymouth 29/06 Fresh Air Express In "Heart of Wessex" [363044/30417/19] Posted by Mark A at 22:19, 9th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Do you happen to have the cancellation data from those years?
Mark
Re: Air India flight to London Gatwick crashed in Ahmedabad - 12 June 2025 In "The Wider Picture Overseas" [363043/30350/52] Posted by ChrisB at 21:38, 9th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
A Mayday was issued by the pilots. The above doesn’t really gel with that?
Re: Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion In "Campaigns for new and improved services" [363042/231/28] Posted by JayMac at 21:10, 9th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
the new Mayor is a dark side fan.
What's a 'dark side fan'? Is he in league with the anthropocentrist Galactic Empire?

Re: 9.08 Bristol to Weymouth 29/06 Fresh Air Express In "Heart of Wessex" [363041/30417/19] Posted by JayMac at 21:09, 9th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Which sums up my reasons for dislike of DMUs. Very often shorter, often less reliable, put passengers off.
What of the frequent cancellations, due to rolling stock issues, of the loco hauled Weymouth services in the days of Wessex Trains? FGW didn't do much better on the reliability front with their 'Weymouth Wizard' HSTs. I bet all those cancellations did a lot to put passengers off taking the train to the seaside.
Re: Air India flight to London Gatwick crashed in Ahmedabad - 12 June 2025 In "The Wider Picture Overseas" [363040/30350/52] Posted by JayMac at 21:00, 9th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
It seems that something in this plane decided to shut down both engines. <snip>
It wouldn't surprise me to hear in the preliminary report that a system controlling engine function or fuel delivery designed to do one thing, erroneously did another. Or activated when it shouldn't have.
It wouldn't surprise me to hear in the preliminary report that a system controlling engine function or fuel delivery designed to do one thing, erroneously did another. Or activated when it shouldn't have.
The highlighted word in the first sentence can of course be replaced by 'someone'. And the highlighted final sentence could of course also read, "Or was activated by someone when it shouldn't have been.'
There has been renewed informed speculation today from a respected air industry publication. The Air Current is quoting several sources close to the investigation who say that the investigation is narrowing in on the fuel cut-off switches. These are two switches located immediately below the thrust levers on a 787. They do what they say. Cut off fuel to the engines. In the vast majority of uses these switches are turned on during the pre-flight and/or engine start checklist. And turned off during the shutdown procedure, usually after being parked at the gate. There are other procedures where these switches may be toggled, as part of an in flight emergency checklist, such as an engine failure/fire.
Whilst these switches are near the thrust levers they can't be accidentally moved during a critical stage of flight. When in the 'Run' position they require a deliberate two stage action - pull the switch up then toggle it to 'Cut-off'. And obviously, to do both then the action has to be repeated. Pilots are taught not to toggle both switches (one with each hand) simultaneously as this can become an undesirable muscle memory action.
So, if the investigators are focusing on these switches then there's the possibility the fuel supply to both engines was cut off by a deliberate or unintended action. Or one engine failed and the other was shut down in error. That is possible, although asymmetric thrust would likely have been evident, unless the shutdown was very quick or the aircraft/pilots reacted very quickly to any asymmetry. That's not to suggest pilot actions were malicious. It could've been a mistake, or it could have been in response to some other issue that caused both engines to 'fail'. With one of the first items on the 'dual engine failure' checklist being to to move the fuel switches to 'cut off' in preparation for a relight sequence, the pilots may have been actioning that.
Another reason to speculate that this incident was the result of a deliberate or unintended human action is the lack of any air safety/airworthiness bulletins. Had the investigators found anything that pointed to a system malfunction, from the FDR, or from debris examination, then there would have been bulletins issued to all operators of the aircraft and engine type.
An interim report is expected by this Friday, 11th July. Under ICAO rules, states in charge of an investigation must report to ICAO within 30 days. There is however no requirement for that interim report to released to the public.
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/ai171-investigation-fuel-control-switches/
I enjoyed this video on YouTube, of a drone flight between Portishead and Pill.
https://youtu.be/CutQrj_5vWI?si=oQOzVKFX0uEZJOgT
Re: Vivarail chosen for fast charging trial on the Greenford branch In "Across the West" [363038/26034/26] Posted by anthony215 at 11:01, 9th July 2025 Already liked by TonyK | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
25th July is doing the rounds on forums.s hinting that the gwr 230 will be carrying fare paying customers
Re: I didn't imagine it In "TransWilts line" [363037/30439/18] Posted by GBM at 07:43, 9th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Today (8th July) whilst watching the disruption/melee at Westbury between 0930 and 1020 on Opentimetrains, I saw a code T706 enter Wesbury via platform 1 and rapidly go towards Warminster.
It then vanished.
I can find no service with that code.
Any thoughts please.
It then vanished.
I can find no service with that code.
Any thoughts please.
The signallers are able to enter any 4 digit alpha-numeric code. I notice that one of the sidings at Westbury has a ground position signal W706, so I wouldn't be surprised that it was a short notice light engine shunt move to the Down Siding 1 that signal is located on.
That would explain why it vanished as not all ground position signals at Westbury have berths (including W706), so headcodes will often vanish.
Ah, thank you.
A freight pulled into Westbury platform '0'. A while later I saw the same train had a different headcode and went down towards Warminster, so I wondered where the now new front engine came from (and what happened to the engine now on the rear).
Re: 9.08 Bristol to Weymouth 29/06 Fresh Air Express In "Heart of Wessex" [363036/30417/19] Posted by grahame at 06:14, 9th July 2025 Already liked by matth1j, Witham Bobby, Mark A | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Until (relatively) recently: a loco + 7 carriages to meet a reliable demand from the travelling public.
Now: a multiple unit with the possibility that the provision is 2 carriages on that service - and a strong possibility that it is cancelled at short notice. Travelling public making other plans. Many miles of expensive rural inter-regional railway doing not very much at all.
Mark
Now: a multiple unit with the possibility that the provision is 2 carriages on that service - and a strong possibility that it is cancelled at short notice. Travelling public making other plans. Many miles of expensive rural inter-regional railway doing not very much at all.
Mark
Following up from the weekend just gone ... the Swindon, Chippenham, Melksham to Weymouth through service ran ... as far as Westbury! Offputting to the public who had planned a day out, and it does long term damage to the railway's reputation, use, and whether people will risk it again for a very long time.
Re: 9.08 Bristol to Weymouth 29/06 Fresh Air Express In "Heart of Wessex" [363035/30417/19] Posted by broadgage at 04:09, 9th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Until (relatively) recently: a loco + 7 carriages to meet a reliable demand from the travelling public.
Now: a multiple unit with the possibility that the provision is 2 carriages on that service - and a strong possibility that it is cancelled at short notice. Travelling public making other plans. Many miles of expensive rural inter-regional railway doing not very much at all.
Mark
Now: a multiple unit with the possibility that the provision is 2 carriages on that service - and a strong possibility that it is cancelled at short notice. Travelling public making other plans. Many miles of expensive rural inter-regional railway doing not very much at all.
Mark
Which sums up my reasons for dislike of DMUs. Very often shorter, often less reliable, put passengers off.
Re: Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion In "Campaigns for new and improved services" [363034/231/28] Posted by infoman at 04:04, 9th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Don't think there is much chance of a new station at Ashton Gate,
as yet,and unconfirmed,the new Mayor is a dark side fan.
Re: Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion In "Campaigns for new and improved services" [363033/231/28] Posted by johnneyw at 22:32, 8th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Just the final business case approval and it will be spades in the ground....
Bearing in mind the bumpy road that the project has frequently stumbled over for too many years, I'm wondering what further potholes the business case could reveal before the sound of spades in ground can be heard......and just how long does it take to approve?
'Jersey Metros' In "The Lighter Side" [363032/30440/30] Posted by Mark A at 22:27, 8th July 2025 Already liked by Western Pathfinder | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
tl:dr certain makes of c21st vehicles are often a lot more reliable and better engineered than those from the 1980s.
The musing on the Portishead branch's temporarily moribund infrastructure and the parked-up new vehicles that surrounds it, took me to Weymouth, it reminded me of the time when driving licences were passed and the hunt for an ex demonstrator vehicle was on.
This was 1989ish, and there was a British Leyland garage nearby, so, in we went to check over... a Metro.
A canary yellow Metro.
This, the sales guy said, was the price it was because it was a 'Jersey Metro' - perhaps it was some tax advantage that caused them to be taken to Weymouth, exported to the Channel Islands, re-imported and sold. I immediately reflected that perhaps it had been cargo on a car transporter train, down the harbour branch on its way to the ferry. Perhaps that happened. Perhaps there's no photographic evidence.
Further inspection suggested that it may indeed have been sitting around in a salt-laden atmosphere, despite it being 'New' the paintwork was dull and a little rust was starting in the weld attaching the roof gutter. To this day, in some remote location on Jersey, there just might be a vehicle compound with half a dozen now barely recognisable relics of that era.
Ended up buying a near-new Peugeot 205 XLD, which on the whole worked out well, though it was rather hungry for front wheel bearing gaiters.
Also, at one point, it needed a replacement head gasket after a few winters of cold starts and immediately up a 1 in 6.
Oh, and later on, its clutch cable snapped half way up a 1 in 7, which stopped the job, though a plus point was that Anthony Head stopped to see if we were ok and then two guys from the garage that maintained it came out very cheerfully to see if they could rescue the situation.
Then... drum brakes. Coming out of Chepstow on the suburban road with speed humps and constantly touching the brakes, onto the motorway and it became obvious that the brakes were somewhat on and would not release - I can't remember the symptom (oh yes I can, it involved heat, smoke, and, once we were off the Severn Bridge, a visit to the hard shoulder). Once they'd cooled they were somewhat happy again.
And... ah, yes, the time that fuel starvation set in, but only in an uphill direction - that turned out to need its fuel pump and injectors needing to travel to a specialist engineer...
Oh, and just once, we ran it out of fuel, partly because we didn't know where Bicester was and partly because the thing was ludicrously fuel efficient (for a car) that it was easy to forget about the stuff. The guy from Green Flag, to his credit, didn't bat an eyelid.
But... it worked out well. Thinking now of the strange trip back from Orkney during that fuel strike, no fuel so the motorway system was empty. The people we were staying with up there kindly lent us, was it a 25 litre plastic can, which with a full tank as well put South West England easily within range, without needing to depend on a filling station, most of which were out of fuel.
Mark
Re: Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion In "Campaigns for new and improved services" [363031/231/28] Posted by TonyK at 18:57, 8th July 2025 Already liked by Mark A | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The satellite view of the route: the out-of-use railway passing acres and acres of new vehicles of one kind or another parked up nose to tail... an eloquent commentary on the UK's transport priorities.
Does anyone know if the vehicle storage there is largely short-stay or is it the case that cars are imported and then suffer the fate of being, well, marooned is the wrong word as it suggests isolation, and there's thousands of them?
Mark
Does anyone know if the vehicle storage there is largely short-stay or is it the case that cars are imported and then suffer the fate of being, well, marooned is the wrong word as it suggests isolation, and there's thousands of them?
Mark
Both scenarios happen. Market forces being what they are, a shipload of cars and vans heading here from Asia might arrive to a recession and sit around waiting for someone to want them. That isn't apparently the case right now. The best figures I can find suggest about 750,000 cars annually pass through the dock, but that includes cars for export as well as arriving. I can't find a number, but car imports were £44 bn to April 2025 and exports £31 bn. Whether that translates to the same proportion in numbers at RPD, I couldn't say. We import mass-produced cheaper cars as a general and very rough rule, but export the higher end.
Re: Locomotives on Bank Notes In "The Lighter Side" [363030/30435/30] Posted by Andy at 12:51, 8th July 2025 Already liked by PhilWakely, johnneyw, GBM, Western Pathfinder | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I'd very much like to see the Titfield thunderbolt on a £10 note .
Why not Titfield Thunderbolt on the tenner, Thomas the Tank Engine on a fiver, Ivor the Engine on the £20 and Hogwarts Express on the £50?
:-)
Re: Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion In "Campaigns for new and improved services" [363029/231/28] Posted by Mark A at 12:20, 8th July 2025 Already liked by Witham Bobby | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The satellite view of the route: the out-of-use railway passing acres and acres of new vehicles of one kind or another parked up nose to tail... an eloquent commentary on the UK's transport priorities.
Does anyone know if the vehicle storage there is largely short-stay or is it the case that cars are imported and then suffer the fate of being, well, marooned is the wrong word as it suggests isolation, and there's thousands of them?
Mark
Re: Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion In "Campaigns for new and improved services" [363028/231/28] Posted by Red Squirrel at 11:50, 8th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I think the three stations are Wellington, Cullompton and Haxby near Liverpool. I would have thought a W&C Parkway might have made more sense, but some tanked up lager louts might have other ideas!
That's how I read it.
Is there any commitment to employ enough trained staff to run a train service reliable enough for people to use once the line and stations are provided?
Perhaps it should launch as a weekday only service to start with!?
Anyway, positive news, though there have been so many false dawns with this project before I can't help but think it will still have some hoops to jump through!
By 2028 the 175’s will, one hopes, be in service. This will presumably help. Is it naive to hope that in two and a half years there might be some improvement to the current crewing problems?
Re: Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion In "Campaigns for new and improved services" [363027/231/28] Posted by Red Squirrel at 11:44, 8th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
From the context, I don’t think it’s too big a stretch to imagine that the three stations referred to are on the Portishead Line. Portishead and Pill are baked in, but the plans have passive provision for Ashton Gate - close to the Stadium. There is no committed funding for this, but it has been mentioned by the WECA mayor recently.
Re: Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion In "Campaigns for new and improved services" [363026/231/28] Posted by IndustryInsider at 11:14, 8th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I think the three stations are Wellington, Cullompton and Haxby near Liverpool. I would have thought a W&C Parkway might have made more sense, but some tanked up lager louts might have other ideas!
That's how I read it.
Is there any commitment to employ enough trained staff to run a train service reliable enough for people to use once the line and stations are provided?
Perhaps it should launch as a weekday only service to start with!?
Anyway, positive news, though there have been so many false dawns with this project before I can't help but think it will still have some hoops to jump through!
Re: I didn't imagine it In "TransWilts line" [363025/30439/18] Posted by IndustryInsider at 11:11, 8th July 2025 Already liked by PrestburyRoad | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Today (8th July) whilst watching the disruption/melee at Westbury between 0930 and 1020 on Opentimetrains, I saw a code T706 enter Wesbury via platform 1 and rapidly go towards Warminster.
It then vanished.
I can find no service with that code.
Any thoughts please.
It then vanished.
I can find no service with that code.
Any thoughts please.
The signallers are able to enter any 4 digit alpha-numeric code. I notice that one of the sidings at Westbury has a ground position signal W706, so I wouldn't be surprised that it was a short notice light engine shunt move to the Down Siding 1 that signal is located on.
That would explain why it vanished as not all ground position signals at Westbury have berths (including W706), so headcodes will often vanish.
Re: I didn't imagine it In "TransWilts line" [363024/30439/18] Posted by Phantom at 10:47, 8th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Are you 100% about the code, was it something from an earlier view of the website?
Only trains passing non commuter were:
6A12 / 6A18 Whatley Quarry to Appleford approx 1017
5U73 Empty 9 car IET from Westbury to Stoke Gifford approx 1021
I didn't imagine it In "TransWilts line" [363023/30439/18] Posted by GBM at 10:23, 8th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Today (8th July) whilst watching the disruption/melee at Westbury between 0930 and 1020 on Opentimetrains, I saw a code T706 enter Wesbury via platform 1 and rapidly go towards Warminster.
It then vanished.
I can find no service with that code.
Any thoughts please.
Re: Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion In "Campaigns for new and improved services" [363022/231/28] Posted by John D at 09:57, 8th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The government is also announcing key rail projects across the country, including reinstating a passenger rail line between Bristol city centre and Portishead, which last ran over 60 years ago, delivering 3 brand new train stations, bringing thousands more people closer to a railway...
Source: gov.uk press releaseThree stations... so Portishead, Pill and, er..?
Not really clear is it, could even read the loosely worded 3 stations as the new Wellington, Cullompton and Haxby.
Originally there were following on the line (not all open at same time) Bedminster and Parson Street (rebuilt in 1930s with two islands about 220m long, as part of quadrupling through to branch junction), then on actual branch had Ashton Gate, Clifton Bridge, Nightingale Valley Halt, Ham Green Halt, Pill, Portbury Shipyard, Portbury and Portishead.
Portbury (adjacent to M25 junction 19) would probably make a good Park and Ride location (if they could build a multi storey car park for some of the car import terminals thus freeing up land), although there is risk might end up stealing rail journeys from further south with people driving to junction 19 instead
Re: Shh ... it's an ekranoplan, isn't it? In "Buses and other ways to travel" [363021/25116/5] Posted by stuving at 09:44, 8th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I was just going to add a note to this thread about reports that the Chinese have built an ekranoplan. Here is one from Aerotime:
Is China working on a wing-in-ground vehicle? Here’s what we know so far
ByMiquel Ros July 7, 2025, 17:57 (UTC +3) Defense
China may be testing a wing-in-ground vehicle, according to reports that have emerged on social media.

Photographs taken from afar show a mysterious vehicle with a design that suggests it may be some sort of wing-in-ground vehicle, also known as “ekranoplan”, after the first designs of this type produced in the Soviet Union.
The pictures were reportedly taken in the Bohai Sea, which is the semi-enclosed northwestern section of the Yellow Sea.
Western analysts have scrambled to examine the images and try to deduce the characteristics of this previously unknown flying vehicle. Defense-focused publication The War Zone, for example, speculated about the type of propulsion this craft may be using, and whether the mounts visible on top of the fuselage are jet engines or the receptacles for some sort of propeller.
This revelation takes place amid an armaments race between the United States and China with a view to getting ready for a hypothetical military confrontation in the Indo-Pacific region, a theater of operations in which amphibious capabilities would play a central role...
ByMiquel Ros July 7, 2025, 17:57 (UTC +3) Defense
China may be testing a wing-in-ground vehicle, according to reports that have emerged on social media.

Photographs taken from afar show a mysterious vehicle with a design that suggests it may be some sort of wing-in-ground vehicle, also known as “ekranoplan”, after the first designs of this type produced in the Soviet Union.
The pictures were reportedly taken in the Bohai Sea, which is the semi-enclosed northwestern section of the Yellow Sea.
Western analysts have scrambled to examine the images and try to deduce the characteristics of this previously unknown flying vehicle. Defense-focused publication The War Zone, for example, speculated about the type of propulsion this craft may be using, and whether the mounts visible on top of the fuselage are jet engines or the receptacles for some sort of propeller.
This revelation takes place amid an armaments race between the United States and China with a view to getting ready for a hypothetical military confrontation in the Indo-Pacific region, a theater of operations in which amphibious capabilities would play a central role...
Supposedly the China Sea is small (and flat?) enough that such a thing might serve to shift an army across it to a beach in short order. Those reports also mentioned the DARPA programme called Liberty Lifter, aiming for a bigger one able to cross oceans. And then guess what - yesterday DARPA announced the abrupt closure of that pgroramme. In Aviation week:
DARPA Ends Liberty Lifter Program
Brian Everstine July 07, 2025

DARPA artist impression of Liberty Lifter Credit: DARPA
DARPA has ended its Liberty Lifter effort to build a full-scale seaplane demonstrator earlier than originally expected, with the agency deciding it was not cost-effective or feasible to build the aircraft...
Brian Everstine July 07, 2025

DARPA artist impression of Liberty Lifter Credit: DARPA
DARPA has ended its Liberty Lifter effort to build a full-scale seaplane demonstrator earlier than originally expected, with the agency deciding it was not cost-effective or feasible to build the aircraft...
Hard to keep up, isn't it?
Re: Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion In "Campaigns for new and improved services" [363020/231/28] Posted by chuffed at 09:35, 8th July 2025 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I think the three stations are Wellington, Cullompton and Haxby near Liverpool. I would have thought a W&C Parkway might have made more sense, but some tanked up lager louts might have other ideas!