| London to Frankfurt and Geneva - direct trains from Eurostar? Posted by grahame at 04:58, 11th June 2025 |     |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cded0zypxl7o
Eurostar plans direct trains to Frankfurt and Geneva
Eurostar has said it plans to launch direct train services from London to Germany and Switzerland.
A fleet of up to 50 new trains, costing around €2bn (£1.7bn), is planned to be up and running by the early 2030s, the firm announced.
Travel time between London and Frankfurt will be about five hours, and around five hours and 20 minutes to Geneva.
But there are questions over the expansion as the firm needs to make sure it has enough space for more trains at its depot in east London.
Eurostar's boss said there was strong demand for train travel across Europe, despite the challenges of higher operational costs and inflation squeezing customer budgets.
"A new golden age of international sustainable travel is here," said chief executive Gwendoline Cazenave, adding that customers were "wanting to go further by rail than ever before".
The introduction of the new trains, which will replace some older ones, will lead to a 30% increase in trains that service London.
The firm is also planning for the proposed new fleet to service a direct line to Geneva from both Amsterdam and Brussels.
It said it was working with partners to get the new lines up and running.
It is not clear if the routes to Frankfurt and Geneva will include stops on the way for passengers to board or leave.
Eurostar has said it plans to launch direct train services from London to Germany and Switzerland.
A fleet of up to 50 new trains, costing around €2bn (£1.7bn), is planned to be up and running by the early 2030s, the firm announced.
Travel time between London and Frankfurt will be about five hours, and around five hours and 20 minutes to Geneva.
But there are questions over the expansion as the firm needs to make sure it has enough space for more trains at its depot in east London.
Eurostar's boss said there was strong demand for train travel across Europe, despite the challenges of higher operational costs and inflation squeezing customer budgets.
"A new golden age of international sustainable travel is here," said chief executive Gwendoline Cazenave, adding that customers were "wanting to go further by rail than ever before".
The introduction of the new trains, which will replace some older ones, will lead to a 30% increase in trains that service London.
The firm is also planning for the proposed new fleet to service a direct line to Geneva from both Amsterdam and Brussels.
It said it was working with partners to get the new lines up and running.
It is not clear if the routes to Frankfurt and Geneva will include stops on the way for passengers to board or leave.
Personal view is that Eurostar policies put the company and maximising income way, way ahead of environmental issues and providing an economic service.
I am still trying to work out why it costs them £30 to provide a reservation for someone who has already paid a long distance / global travel pass ... or why they limit the number of such reservations made on their trains and defeat the whole objective of these passes of easier travel all at a single price. You can still get seats if the allocation of reservations has gone, but you are looking at hundreds of pounds. If you ask, some will tell you it's the need for immigration fees, etc ... but that's called out as a smokescreen when you note that they charge the same reservation fee on their Paris to Amsterdam service which is within Schengen.
Please post contrary evidence, but with other companies looking to run a wider variety of services from London through the Channel Tunnel, I wonder if the Eurostar owners are more concerned with protecting their market here rather than majoring on looking out for / after passengers or the environment. The objectives often co-incide but they are not the same nor close parallels.
Eurostar is not alone in what may appear to be looking to maintain a monopoly that's not really in the long term interests of vibrant and growing passenger traffic.
| Re: London to Frankfurt and Geneva - direct trains from Eurostar? Posted by grahame at 07:02, 12th June 2025 | |
Press release from Railfuture:
Railfuture comments on Eurostar announcement. Planning new trains to Germany and Switzerland:
It looks as if Eurostar has finally decided to expand. The Eurostar 50 new trains order has been around for a while but without stated commitment to run from Britain.
The "concentrate in the core, high fares" strategy is fine in the short run if you have no wider economic objectives but it has opened up a plethora of open access proposals.
Perhaps the most significant result is for Eurostar to realise that they are best placed to expand with less barriers to entry than new entrants. The key is to do this fast enough to keep new entrants at bay. The announcement to add new routes from London to Germany and Switzerland is strategically significant in this respect.
Open access has, in this way, already served a purpose without even running a train. In strategic terms this is good. Railfuture welcomes this development but makes it clear that this still leaves scope for more services and more competition, particularly on the existing Paris route and to the largest air market from Britain, after Paris and Amsterdam, i.e. Spain.
Also, sooner or later, someone will realise that there are other cities in Britain that have a huge air market, More people travel from Manchester to Paris than from London to any city in Switzerland.
Railfuture contends that the timing and the economics are right for sustainable rail travel from Britain as is the market appetite.
Railfuture's suggested choice of preferred open access routes.
This is ambitious for obvious reasons against the present situation but far less so in market terms. It also makes the presumption that the current preoccupation with immigration and security will be eased, with new technology and EU technology.
This proposes two strategic stops en route here, Stratford in long haul fast services to take about 30% volume to ease St Pancras, and Ashford for the Kent catchment area with its propensity to travel to Continental Europe.
Stratford or in some case, Lille would largely replace St Pancras as the interchange point from NW England.
Draft list of contenders.
Eurostar's proposals plus;
Paris route competition
London, Stratford - Paris (fast)
London, Ashford - Calais, Lille, Paris
London, Ashford - Charles de Gaulle Airport, Disneyland Paris, Lyon. Delete Lyon, add Tours, Bordeaux
Manchester, Crewe (Merseyside and North West hub), Rugby(West Midlands hub), Stratford - Lille, Paris (all with long platforms)
South of France and Spain route competition
London, Stratford- Barcelona, Madrid (fast)
London, Ashford - Lyon, Avignon, Marseille
London, Ashford - Lyon, Montpellier, Perpignan, Barcelona. Delete Barcelona, possibly combined to Avignon
Add
London, Ashford, Charles de Gaulle Airport, Disneyland, LeMans, Nantes, with multiple service stops to provide frequency to CdG and Disneyland.
London, Ashford- Germany route competition
London, Stratford - Hannover, Berlin (fast)
London, Stratford - Brussels, Koln, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Zurich, Milan
Belgium, Netherlands route competition
Manchester, Crewe, Rugby, Stratford - Lille, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam
Nord Pas de Calais shuttle in cooperation on fares with SE High Speed and domestic Ashford - Calais, Lille
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes to editors:
Railfuture is the UK's leading independent organisation campaigning for better rail services for both passengers and freight.
Railfuture's website can be found at: www.railfuture.org.uk
It looks as if Eurostar has finally decided to expand. The Eurostar 50 new trains order has been around for a while but without stated commitment to run from Britain.
The "concentrate in the core, high fares" strategy is fine in the short run if you have no wider economic objectives but it has opened up a plethora of open access proposals.
Perhaps the most significant result is for Eurostar to realise that they are best placed to expand with less barriers to entry than new entrants. The key is to do this fast enough to keep new entrants at bay. The announcement to add new routes from London to Germany and Switzerland is strategically significant in this respect.
Open access has, in this way, already served a purpose without even running a train. In strategic terms this is good. Railfuture welcomes this development but makes it clear that this still leaves scope for more services and more competition, particularly on the existing Paris route and to the largest air market from Britain, after Paris and Amsterdam, i.e. Spain.
Also, sooner or later, someone will realise that there are other cities in Britain that have a huge air market, More people travel from Manchester to Paris than from London to any city in Switzerland.
Railfuture contends that the timing and the economics are right for sustainable rail travel from Britain as is the market appetite.
Railfuture's suggested choice of preferred open access routes.
This is ambitious for obvious reasons against the present situation but far less so in market terms. It also makes the presumption that the current preoccupation with immigration and security will be eased, with new technology and EU technology.
This proposes two strategic stops en route here, Stratford in long haul fast services to take about 30% volume to ease St Pancras, and Ashford for the Kent catchment area with its propensity to travel to Continental Europe.
Stratford or in some case, Lille would largely replace St Pancras as the interchange point from NW England.
Draft list of contenders.
Eurostar's proposals plus;
Paris route competition
London, Stratford - Paris (fast)
London, Ashford - Calais, Lille, Paris
London, Ashford - Charles de Gaulle Airport, Disneyland Paris, Lyon. Delete Lyon, add Tours, Bordeaux
Manchester, Crewe (Merseyside and North West hub), Rugby(West Midlands hub), Stratford - Lille, Paris (all with long platforms)
South of France and Spain route competition
London, Stratford- Barcelona, Madrid (fast)
London, Ashford - Lyon, Avignon, Marseille
London, Ashford - Lyon, Montpellier, Perpignan, Barcelona. Delete Barcelona, possibly combined to Avignon
Add
London, Ashford, Charles de Gaulle Airport, Disneyland, LeMans, Nantes, with multiple service stops to provide frequency to CdG and Disneyland.
London, Ashford- Germany route competition
London, Stratford - Hannover, Berlin (fast)
London, Stratford - Brussels, Koln, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Zurich, Milan
Belgium, Netherlands route competition
Manchester, Crewe, Rugby, Stratford - Lille, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam
Nord Pas de Calais shuttle in cooperation on fares with SE High Speed and domestic Ashford - Calais, Lille
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes to editors:
Railfuture is the UK's leading independent organisation campaigning for better rail services for both passengers and freight.
Railfuture's website can be found at: www.railfuture.org.uk
| Re: London to Frankfurt and Geneva - direct trains from Eurostar? Posted by Electric train at 20:55, 12th June 2025 | |
Press release from Railfuture:
Railfuture comments on Eurostar announcement. Planning new trains to Germany and Switzerland:
It looks as if Eurostar has finally decided to expand. The Eurostar 50 new trains order has been around for a while but without stated commitment to run from Britain.
The "concentrate in the core, high fares" strategy is fine in the short run if you have no wider economic objectives but it has opened up a plethora of open access proposals.
Perhaps the most significant result is for Eurostar to realise that they are best placed to expand with less barriers to entry than new entrants. The key is to do this fast enough to keep new entrants at bay. The announcement to add new routes from London to Germany and Switzerland is strategically significant in this respect.
Open access has, in this way, already served a purpose without even running a train. In strategic terms this is good. Railfuture welcomes this development but makes it clear that this still leaves scope for more services and more competition, particularly on the existing Paris route and to the largest air market from Britain, after Paris and Amsterdam, i.e. Spain.
Also, sooner or later, someone will realise that there are other cities in Britain that have a huge air market, More people travel from Manchester to Paris than from London to any city in Switzerland.
Railfuture contends that the timing and the economics are right for sustainable rail travel from Britain as is the market appetite.
Railfuture's suggested choice of preferred open access routes.
This is ambitious for obvious reasons against the present situation but far less so in market terms. It also makes the presumption that the current preoccupation with immigration and security will be eased, with new technology and EU technology.
This proposes two strategic stops en route here, Stratford in long haul fast services to take about 30% volume to ease St Pancras, and Ashford for the Kent catchment area with its propensity to travel to Continental Europe.
Stratford or in some case, Lille would largely replace St Pancras as the interchange point from NW England.
Draft list of contenders.
Eurostar's proposals plus;
Paris route competition
London, Stratford - Paris (fast)
London, Ashford - Calais, Lille, Paris
London, Ashford - Charles de Gaulle Airport, Disneyland Paris, Lyon. Delete Lyon, add Tours, Bordeaux
Manchester, Crewe (Merseyside and North West hub), Rugby(West Midlands hub), Stratford - Lille, Paris (all with long platforms)
South of France and Spain route competition
London, Stratford- Barcelona, Madrid (fast)
London, Ashford - Lyon, Avignon, Marseille
London, Ashford - Lyon, Montpellier, Perpignan, Barcelona. Delete Barcelona, possibly combined to Avignon
Add
London, Ashford, Charles de Gaulle Airport, Disneyland, LeMans, Nantes, with multiple service stops to provide frequency to CdG and Disneyland.
London, Ashford- Germany route competition
London, Stratford - Hannover, Berlin (fast)
London, Stratford - Brussels, Koln, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Zurich, Milan
Belgium, Netherlands route competition
Manchester, Crewe, Rugby, Stratford - Lille, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam
Nord Pas de Calais shuttle in cooperation on fares with SE High Speed and domestic Ashford - Calais, Lille
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes to editors:
Railfuture is the UK's leading independent organisation campaigning for better rail services for both passengers and freight.
Railfuture's website can be found at: www.railfuture.org.uk
It looks as if Eurostar has finally decided to expand. The Eurostar 50 new trains order has been around for a while but without stated commitment to run from Britain.
The "concentrate in the core, high fares" strategy is fine in the short run if you have no wider economic objectives but it has opened up a plethora of open access proposals.
Perhaps the most significant result is for Eurostar to realise that they are best placed to expand with less barriers to entry than new entrants. The key is to do this fast enough to keep new entrants at bay. The announcement to add new routes from London to Germany and Switzerland is strategically significant in this respect.
Open access has, in this way, already served a purpose without even running a train. In strategic terms this is good. Railfuture welcomes this development but makes it clear that this still leaves scope for more services and more competition, particularly on the existing Paris route and to the largest air market from Britain, after Paris and Amsterdam, i.e. Spain.
Also, sooner or later, someone will realise that there are other cities in Britain that have a huge air market, More people travel from Manchester to Paris than from London to any city in Switzerland.
Railfuture contends that the timing and the economics are right for sustainable rail travel from Britain as is the market appetite.
Railfuture's suggested choice of preferred open access routes.
This is ambitious for obvious reasons against the present situation but far less so in market terms. It also makes the presumption that the current preoccupation with immigration and security will be eased, with new technology and EU technology.
This proposes two strategic stops en route here, Stratford in long haul fast services to take about 30% volume to ease St Pancras, and Ashford for the Kent catchment area with its propensity to travel to Continental Europe.
Stratford or in some case, Lille would largely replace St Pancras as the interchange point from NW England.
Draft list of contenders.
Eurostar's proposals plus;
Paris route competition
London, Stratford - Paris (fast)
London, Ashford - Calais, Lille, Paris
London, Ashford - Charles de Gaulle Airport, Disneyland Paris, Lyon. Delete Lyon, add Tours, Bordeaux
Manchester, Crewe (Merseyside and North West hub), Rugby(West Midlands hub), Stratford - Lille, Paris (all with long platforms)
South of France and Spain route competition
London, Stratford- Barcelona, Madrid (fast)
London, Ashford - Lyon, Avignon, Marseille
London, Ashford - Lyon, Montpellier, Perpignan, Barcelona. Delete Barcelona, possibly combined to Avignon
Add
London, Ashford, Charles de Gaulle Airport, Disneyland, LeMans, Nantes, with multiple service stops to provide frequency to CdG and Disneyland.
London, Ashford- Germany route competition
London, Stratford - Hannover, Berlin (fast)
London, Stratford - Brussels, Koln, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Zurich, Milan
Belgium, Netherlands route competition
Manchester, Crewe, Rugby, Stratford - Lille, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam
Nord Pas de Calais shuttle in cooperation on fares with SE High Speed and domestic Ashford - Calais, Lille
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes to editors:
Railfuture is the UK's leading independent organisation campaigning for better rail services for both passengers and freight.
Railfuture's website can be found at: www.railfuture.org.uk
I believe it was always Eurostar ambition to expand its services further into Europe. A few things that dented that ambition, Covid really hit Eurostar hard financially onto top of the cost of procuring the class 375's and to a lesser extent was initially the uncertainty of the impact of Brexit border controls. The other part of the picture has been more and more high speed lines being linked up in Europe, they get on and build theirs while we procrastinate
The full merger and rebranding of Thalys into Eurostar certainly underlines their ambition.
